We're Writing Firefox Plug-ins? Interview with Ian Gilman and Thoughts on 10 Months at Microsoft - Port 25: The Open Source Community at Microsoft
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We're Writing Firefox Plug-ins? Interview with Ian Gilman and Thoughts on 10 Months at Microsoft by hjanssen on February 28, 2007 06:06PM

When I started working at Microsoft in May of 2006 I wanted to chronicle my adventures here. So my first blog was posted on June 7th 2006 Titled What is a guy like me doing in a place like this, I had every intention writing frequently about my experiences. As you can see, I have not been very consistent with that. Something that I will try to improve in the future.

If you would have told me 1 year ago that I would work at Microsoft I would have laughed. I still walk around looking with amazement at my badge, and when I go to other MS buildings I shake my head when I have to swipe my badge on the reader. When I talk to people I continue to refer to them and us (them being Microsoft, Us being the rest of the world Smile)

I am happy to report that I continue to be the department's skeptic Smile, something I will continue to be.

So I wanted to take this opportunity to talk about a bunch of my experiences since a lot has happened in the last 10 months (more about this later)

First of all, contrary what people believe, I do not know of a greater Microsoft plot to take over the world and destroy Linux and OSS. If there is such a thing, we at our level are unaware of it.   And since this department in many ways is on the front lines working with OSS and Linux, I would have expected to see some evidence.

There is no helicopter pad (not on campus anyway) where Microsoft stores its black helicopters.  There are no dispensers of Microsoft Kool-Aid. (They might have some dispensers in the water coolers though.) And the articles, blogs and posts that I read on what is going on here are most of the time completely off the mark.

Is Microsoft competing with Linux and OSS?? You bet they are. Just like every other company is competing against other companies/people/products that create similar products.

Is Microsoft working to better interface with some of the Linux and OSS products? You bet they are too! We are frequently working on those things as well.

I am not being censored or restricted in any way. I actually have access to a very wide array of things. More so than I thought I would when I started.

The department has a unique position inside of Microsoft. We get to talk to and work with a very wide swath of Microsoft product lines. Just to highlight a typical week that took place a few weeks ago; in the same week I spoke to the Robotics guys, people from the embedded department, People from IIS, SQL server department, the Powershell developers and the cardspace group. And this is a typical week. I am not sure how may other places in Microsoft have the same breadth.

And more and more groups are becoming aware of what we do and contact us to work with us.

Is Microsoft changing?? Yeah, I think it is. In some places it is going very fast, in other places not so much.

Yet if I look back over the last 10 months, I have seen some great changes happen. To name a few:

  • My Boss Sam Ramji invited the Mozilla foundation guys out to Redmond to help them get their products to work better inside of Vista. I spent the entire time they where here with them.  It was met with great skeptism, the Slashdot comments ranged from ‘they are hiring the mozzilla folks’ to other helpful hints such as ‘fly on a different planes’.  But I can say that when we send out feelers inside of the company of people would like to talk to them, people at Microsoft where literally lining up to do so.   Read my blog for more on it.
  • Microsoft’s announcement of working with Zend to make PHP work better on windows, The department works with the Zend guys to assist them wherever we can.
  • We have continued to write and post many technical docs to Port 25, and will of course continue to do so in the future.  We are always looking for topics.
  • Sam interviewed Miguel De Icaza and Steve Wozniak and many other people.  
  • We continually help other parts of Microsoft when they have any questions about OSS, and help them when they want to Open Source things.  (Powertoys for example)
  • The department is working with Novell on implementing the partnership. The interoperability lab that is being talked about with Novell is not smoke and mirrors.
  • There are many more items. I will leave it as an exercise to the reader to read port25.technet.com for some of the other stuff we have been doing.

But we have been touching a lot of items people never thought a few years ago would be likely. Getting Mozilla people on site for one. Another one that would have been considered impossible is Microsoft writing plugins for Firefox. Here is a cool one for example Photosynth, and you can listen to my podcast in which I interview Ian Gilman one of the Photosynth developers.  Here is a link to the blog metioned in the podcast:  http://labs.live.com/photosynth/blogs/

Just think about that for a second, Microsoft writing Firefox plugins!!!

I will leave you all with a few more observations:

  • Microsoft does listen to OSS people. And we do work with those people. More and more all the time. 
  • There is still an awful lot of work to be done. Both internally and externally. 
  • When the OSSL was created at Microsoft people thought it to be another Microsoft marketing ploy. Well I can tell you that that is certainly not the case here at OSSL. 
  • The other guys in the group Sam, Anandeep, Kishi, Michael and Jamie are a blast to work with.

There seems to be a perception that we are not moving fast enough. But I believe we have been able to move at a pretty good speed!  And, there are quite a few more things that we are working on that will show up in the future.

Looking back over the past 10 months I have come to the realization that I am really enjoying the job. There certainly are frustrating times, if you are on the front lines like we seem to be you are likely to get smacked every once and a while. If you are not, than you are not doing your job Smile. But we are seeing noticeable change on all fronts. And it is a blast to be able to work with so many groups inside and outside of Microsoft.

So I will close with the following, I am not drinking the Kool-Aid, quite the opposite; I continue to question everything that is going on inside of Microsoft.  And I will continue to be a voice for Open Source inside of Microsoft.

Comments RSS
  1. einhverfr said:

    Well aside from the "obvious" fact that it is Microsoft has innovated the use of soda instead of Kool-Aid ;-).... Just kidding of course....

    I would actually go further.  Since the beginning of the development of NT, Microsoft has begun to understand that the island approach to development cannot continue to serve them well.  Has this been a gradual process?  Yes it has, but it has meant the slow move towards more standards-based approaches.  What started with adopting DCE/RPC and trying to extend it to handle domain logins (as in NT4's approach), lead to adopting Kerberos and LDAP for ActiveDirectory.

    I also think that the economic relationship between Microsoft and open source software is likely to be more complex than a simple competitor relationship.  Open source software offers both challenges and opportunities for the company, and despite being an open source guy, hope that the OSSL helps Microsoft refocus on what will help drive their market forward.

    One suggestion I have is that, in an age where Microsoft's growth rate is likely to shrink due to factors including market saturation, it would make sense to evaluate open source software and see how it can fit into a larger Windows strategy.  

    For example, the main advantage of IIS today is that it allows a Microsoft shop to reuse such code pieces as they have built and use these in web apps, but there is no reason that Apache couldn't be made to do this, especially with the "new" MPM architecture.  Is it really worth competing with a project when neither side is charging extra for the software?  Why not push for a Windows development architecture on Apache?  If there are still performance issues, why not contribute to the Win32 MPM instead of reinventing the entire stack yourself?

    Other questions that occur to me include:

    1)  Is it really worth continuing to develop MSHTML?  Would it be better to use Gecko?

    2)  Are there other protocol stacks that could be outsourced to the open source community without compromising the Windows-specific advantages?

    I don't expect these to be answered today, but perhaps in another few years we will see some of these start to take center stage.  They seem to me to be great ways of freeing up some development funds so that they could be better spent on areas which are vital.

    I actually think we have seen Microsoft start down this path over the last year or two, starting with the discussion of open source extensions for Visual Studio.  Hopefully (for everyone), this trend will continue.

    posted at 10:12PM 02/28/2007
  2. "Windows XP SP2 and Vista Only

    The Photosynth technology preview runs only on Windows XP SP2 and Windows Vista."

    Is this a joke?

    Even the WPF/E team is doing better.

    posted at 11:32PM 02/28/2007
  3. hjanssen said:

    jwelch, I was referring to Microsoft writing FF plugins. Which I think is significant. Is the issue you have that Photosynth only runs on XP SP2 and Vista? Since it is only a technology preview right now, I for one have no idea what the final product will look like. I can get some information on it if you are interested.

    btw, a check to the plugin page on firefox right now says that there a few plugins not available on Linux. Do you give the manufacturers of those products the same grief as MS?

    posted at 01:51PM 03/01/2007
  4. fluke said:

    I found the metaphors of "black helicopters" and "kool-aid" to be poor metaphor ever since the popular press started using them.  I can understand that a Doctor Dobb's review of "AARD code" might not make sense to as large an audience as black helos, but it still just ends up masking discussion of the real issue.

    .

    However, to be told that a metaphor is not real is just flat out insulting.  Do you mean that despite the Microsoft ads for Vista that MS doesn't actually launch Mercury rockets from Redmond?!?!  "Wow!"    Geee.  Thanks for pointing that out!

    .

    Well, I doubt the popular press will stop using poorly choosen metaphors.  So, let me explain what these metaphors are to you so we can move on and discuss things that really matter in the future.  The  black helos are not something that require landing pads because they are things like WGA that result in angry customers that had their ability to install SP2 stopped because an OEM decided to re-use the same key on several machines.  And the "kool-aid" is not something provided to the employees but rather to the people of "Jonestown" (actually in this case webmasters) that after accepting the "religion" of promoting that web sites work best with IE6 then had to swallow the poison of poor CSS support.

    .

    Sooo, when some smart ass popular press member gets the idea to compare the Vista "wow" experience with Apollo 1/Challenger/Columbia, they aren't claiming that Redmond, Wa is the latest location of NASA,  rather they are really talking about one of the following:

    .

    - Vista Home can only be run on Mac via Bootcamp requiring exiting Mac OS X and can not be run inside Parallels [1][2]

    .

    - Vista "Express Upgrade" may not be available until mid-April from several OEMs [3]

    .

    - Users that bought Vista Family discount where provided invalid keys [4]

    .

    - Vista activation keys might already be in illegit use before they where even purchased [5]

    .

    - Vista UAC system is flawed Devil[7]

    .

    - Vista hinders users' efficiency Music

    .

    - Vista does not work with existing equipment [9]

    .

    And my favorite considering how much effort Port 25 has put saying that Microsoft has worked with Mozilla to make sure their products work with Vista:

    .

    - Vista's list of verified applications does not include such popular applications as Firefox or OpenOffice [10]

    .

    "Do you give the manufacturers of those products the same grief as MS?"

    .

    There have been several company forums that have gotten "grief" for lacking multi-platform and multi-OS support with their plug-ins.  Javasoft put in a system where users could "vote" for bugs/issues which resulted in the lack of an offical JRE/plugin for GNU/Linux becoming a top item.  Sun then caught grief when they re-iterated why an offical JRE would not be coming from them any time soon.  Adobe has been catching grief for not providing flash plug-ins for either GNU/Linux PPC or a pure x86-64 GNU/Linux plug-in.  As far as I can tell, MS has gotten off easy since the responsiblity for getting MS plug-ins to work on GNU/Linux has been taken up by Codeweavers.  If you ever decide to take your "MS is being unfairly targetted" sunglasses off (btw, that is another metaphor, you might not actually be wearing real sunglasses), then you might notice that several manufacturers catch "grief."

    .

    What is troubling about a MS post tagged "interop" pushing yet another single platform/single OS web plugin is that MS is in the best position to provide a true interop multi-platform/multi-OS plug-in solution!  With version 3 of the .Net framework out, why is there still no clear roadmap to phase out BHO and ActiveX?  I would prefer to see a Firefox plugin that allows the same IL code plugin to run as-is under both Firefox and IE even if initially such support is only single platform/single OS.  The fact the Photosyth team took the time to port their work to a Firefox plugin does deserve a pat on the back but in the end doesn't gain me any more additional functionality than using IETab extention for Firefox.  Regardless of the resources available on any platform, unless it has a Win32 x86 or Win64 x86-64 eveniroment, these Photosyth offerings is worthless to me.  I would like to see a roadmap where my cellphone, portable entertainment unit, PDA, game console and workstation could all use the same plugin as-is regardless of processor type without having to give any company grief for a port.

    .

    References:

    [1] http://www.securityfocus.com/columnists/420

    [2] http://tech.blorge.com/Structure:%20/2007/02/07/microsoft-slugs-mac-users-with-vista-tax/

    [3] http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070216-8861.html

    [4] http://www.neowin.net/index.php?act=view&id=37734

    [5] http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=37941

    Devil http://blogs.zdnet.com/security/?p=29

    [7] http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,129268/article.html

    Music http://www.it-enquirer.com/main/ite/more/pfeiffer_vista/

    [9] http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6407419.stm

    [10] http://computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9011635&intsrc=hm_list

    posted at 03:57PM 03/02/2007
  5. "btw, a check to the plugin page on firefox right now says that there a few plugins not available on Linux. Do you give the manufacturers of those products the same grief as MS?"

    If they're a closed source company bragging about how they're writing plugins for firefox like it's some kind of "oooh, look, we're so l33t x-platform", then yeah. Funny how Microsoft is one of the few companies doing that.

    "jwelch, I was referring to Microsoft writing FF plugins. Which I think is significant. "

    No, not really. It's hardly the first, or even the only one. Maybe you don't know about the others, but that still doesn't make it more than it is

    "Is the issue you have that Photosynth only runs on XP SP2 and Vista? Since it is only a technology preview right now, I for one have no idea what the final product will look like. I can get some information on it if you are interested."

    The issue is that you didn't state that clearly. if that bothers you, well, sorry, but Microsoft pissed away any trust it had over the last 15 years, and with the most recent idiocy about taking action against Linux users and the VMware idiocy, it's not acting like it particularly cares to regain it.

    "Vista Home can only be run on Mac via Bootcamp requiring exiting Mac OS X and can not be run inside Parallels [1][2]"

    Even stupider, for the versions you CAN run in a VM, you can't run anything that uses DRM. Care to tell anyone how the hell to know what uses DRM BEFORE they are in violation of the EULA?

    Of course, with as hard and fast as Microsoft is FUD'ing VMware, I'm guessing that's real low on the priority list.

    Funny how after all the hype about Port25, Microsoft's still 99% talk with regard to interop once you get outside of the Mac BU.

    posted at 06:53PM 03/02/2007
  6. fluke said:

    jwelch: Just to play "devils advocate," what exactly are you saying Microsoft should do to earn trust?

    .

    Clearly Microsoft doesn't want to be a company so out of touch with it's consumers that it puts out a MP3 player that has a color style similar to a 1970's home 8-track player, but clearly right now that is that is where the company is at.  So, what should they do about it?  If you expect S. Ballmer to stop saying stupid things then I think your not going to get very far.  But keep in mind that his sounding similar to SCO's Darl McBride stops at the speechs.  Instead of making a court case out of it's IP claims, MS has actually given up it's patent claims on BlueJ methods.

    .

    The anti-VM clause which excludes use of Vista Home on Parallels, VirtualBox, VMware, Xen, etc, does seem like a clear show stopper issue (at least for me it is).  I will never bother to try Vista myself with that clause in place.  I see no reason to provide bare metal for an OS until I tried it out inside a VM first and I see no reason to buy the a more expensive version of an OS just to be able to sample it in a VM.  I would like to think that others think the same way.  

    .

    At an University I have done work with, there where 6,200 personal machine registered to use the school's wireless of which 1,500 are Mac (24%).  I would like to be able to claim that the Vista Home EULA will effect how many of those Mac using students ever consider trying Vista.  It might be possible that MS is betting on their Student Select pricing to encourage students to buy the ultimate edition regardless and there will probably be cases where they win that bet.  But considering the University that I have delt with is not involved in the Student Select program from MS, I doubt they will win that bet there.

    posted at 08:18PM 03/02/2007
  7. norberto said:

    Hi, I think you are far away from corporate's head planning. Never trust in corporates, always you must remember Enron ;)

    Microsoft contacts are always for sell, buy or destroy.

    From OS-9 version 2.4 manual in the Glossary of Appendix C.

    UNIX: An operating system similar to OS-9, but with less

    functionality and special features designed to soak up excess

    memory, disk space and CPU time on large, expensive computers.

    posted at 01:39AM 03/03/2007
  8. einhverfr said:

    Yes, I remember reading about the AARD code.  And yes, when I read about it, I was horrified that Microsoft would do such a blatantly anti-competitive thing.  And at the time I read about it, I was working for Microsoft as a temp.  That was about the time I migrated my parents from Windows 95 to Red Hat 6.1 and discovered that people who were non-techie could appreciate a Linux desktop even at that point in time.

    However, we should remember that the AARD code was a *long* time ago (Windows 3.0 beta).  Most or all of the worst things that Microsoft did (according to several anti-trust cases) are at this point in the fairly distant past in computer time.  In my experience, Microsoft is a different company today than it was then.  One cannot continue to hold German people accountable for the events of the '30s can we?  There must be a statute of limitations on a collective somewhere.  And while this doesn't mean that we should forget, it does mean that such things from the distant past become weaker in terms of understanding what Microsoft is doing today.

    Furthermore, it is worth noting that a very large portion of Windows NT technologies are based on non-Microsoft open standards.  While we can debate whether standards like the Open Group's DCE/RPC are really the best choices out there, it is worth noting that at least part of Microsoft has been interested in open standards.  As I understand it, you can take a DCE/RPC implementation on Linux (such as the reference implementation that the Open Group recently open sourced), and access DCOM objects on Windows as long as you don't go beyond the subset that Microsoft implemented.  Certainly while the wisdom of the choice of standards can be debated, the level of compliance is *way* beyond what Microsoft gets credit for.

    I maintain one Vista system for testing my open source software to ensure it runs properly on Windows.  All of my main production systems run Linux.  And my experience with Vista is a mixed bag.  I think some things have been done better and I think some new features (in particular UAC) are very counterproductive.  Of course, for my needs, Linux is a much better desktop OS, (and I can honestly say that most people would find the same if they gave it a chance), but compared to XP, it is sort of a lateral upgrade.  It represents, however, a set of changes that perhaps Microsoft will get right in future releases.  Many of the ideas are good ideas but the implementation needs work.

    posted at 02:07AM 03/03/2007
  9. The Port25 blog is the outlet of Microsoft's Open Source Software lab. It often includes interesting

    posted at 06:31AM 03/05/2007
  10. fluke said:

    I brought up AARD, not because I think people should choose how they interact with Microsoft based on it, but because I feel is it a clear cut case that history has spoken.  It shouldn't be that big of a leap of the imagination to go from using "black helos" has a metaphor for AARD.  Other modern issues have not played out and are more controversial so it is harder to use them to explain a "black helo" metaphor.  For example, members of FSF that claim Vista to be "Broken by Design" clearly consider DRM/Trusted-Path to be a "black helo" but it is not clear yet how this issue will play out in the public mind.

    .

    But I agree with you that AARD is dated material.  I would even go one step further and be willing to accept that other companies had their own "AARD" type issues in their past.  However, say for example, someone wrote about the Trail of Tears but used "Goblins and Gremlins" as a metaphor for the US military--would you then point out that America is not the "big evil" by attacking if the representive figures in the metaphor do not actually exist.  It is a given, by nature of the metaphor, that Black Helos, Kool-Aid, Goblins and Gremlins do not directly exist.  And while I wouldn't claim that the US or Microsoft is either a great evil empire, I would claim that attacking a metaphor makes for a weak straw-man arguement.

    .

    Yes, Microsoft has *based* a lot on open standards.  They loose credit for interoperating in the open standards area when it becomes an "embrace and extend."

    .

    Microsoft had adopted "support" for OpenGL, right?  What does that mean in terms of WHQL certification?  What is Microsoft doing to help promote use of OpenGL v2.0?

    .

    Microsoft has adopted Kerberos... but consider the following taken directly from the Kerberos FAQ: "NT 5.0 will indeed use Kerberos. However, this protocol has been 'embraced and extended' by Microsoft..."

    .

    Microsoft has adopted IPSEC... but by default XP seems to prefers to do L2TP/IPSec instead.

    .

    Microsoft has adopted IPv6... they have actually gotten around to shipping a home version of their OS with a support implimentation!

    .

    Microsoft has adopted getting other to *break* RFCs for them... they release SenderID under the Open Specification Promise but to get the benefits of the OSP  you must impliment the specification as stated by MS including violation of RFC 2822.

    .

    And, as your point out, Microsoft did an E&E on DCE/RPC.  This is far from something that works with the Open Group reference implementation.  Instead, you need to purchase Software AG's EntireX to get something that will work with Microsoft.  I very much doubt there will ever be a guide provided by Port 25 on how to get the Open Group reference implementation to interop with DCOM services on Windows 2003 or Vista.

    .

    Microsoft still embrases MD4 to obfuscate storage of passwords including in an ADS enviroment with no options to help address Rainbow crackers such as being able to add "salt" to the hash.  While MD4 is an open standard, to continue to ship products in 2007 which uses it as part of a "security" paradigm...

    .

    Microsoft embraces XML!  And puts out a 6,000 page specification that  provides new tags to do what SVG aleady provides and other tags which are defined as "do what Word 95 does."  While the "specification" is supposibly available for free, the applications needed to fully understand that specification are not provided with it.  It is like learning a foreign language by having a teacher tell you to "just treat the words like a native speaker would treat them" as his only instruction!  

    .

    Microsoft claims on several occations they would embrace W3C standards.  Port 25 even has claimed that customers are now the winners of "better" a browser because of competition.  But the Acid2 test shows that IE7 still makes no attempt to compete with Opera, Safari or Konqueror for CSS support.

    .

    It is on-going issues as these that cause members of the community to claim I'm drinking Microsoft's "Kool-Aid" when I try to advocate others to read Port 25.  So, am I being fed red artifical coloring and lots of suger without any of the benefits of a real fruit juice?  Or is it that there is even poison mixed in?  Only time will tell.  So far, I still can not legally package the Single Sign-On Daemon present on Port 25 as an RPM or dpkg since nothing on Port 25 or Codeplex indicate it is provided under any license other than "All right reserved."

    posted at 01:31PM 03/05/2007
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