Port 25 - Communications from the open source community at Microsoft

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1. jwelch@bynkii.com said:

   It runs on Firefox, but only if you run Firefox on windows.

   With that limitation, really, why did they bother? I thought Port 25 was supposed to be about things Microsoft is doing with !Windows platforms.

   posted at 07:41AM 01/24/2007
2. MKR said:

   As the previous poster said, it does seem a bit pointless if it's not going to work outside of Windows. If I have to boot all the way in to Windows I might as well just use IE to view it. :|

   posted at 08:47AM 01/24/2007
3. jcannon said:

   I'm surprised to hear you say that. Two reasons. Mozilla is seen by many as one of the most widely deployed, and successful (by way of critical reception) open source projects. Just Wikipedia the project. Two - this matters to customers. Depending on what market share numbers you depend on, Mozilla represents the browsing platform of between 11-14% of customers (can't say what OS make-up is underneath - I'm sure the data exists, just not handy) -

   Port 25 and the lab look at Open Source at large & Windows, not purely Linux (as the comment seems to infer).

   posted at 11:35AM 01/24/2007
4. Sam Ramji said:

   jwelch and MKR - Port 25 is about Open Source (you may note the name of my group is the Open Source Software Lab), which includes open source applications (like Firefox) and open source operating systems (like Linux).  

   If this were a site about non-Windows operating systems you would see much more on HP-UX, AIX, OS/390 and OS/400 as those represent the bulk of non-Windows operating systems in the market.

   Based on jwelch's comments in the past, I think you actually know this but are being disingenuous in order to post some flamebait.

   posted at 12:17PM 01/24/2007
5. hjanssen said:

   I think what people should see is something that nobody would have thought not long ago.

   Microsoft build a plugin for Firefox!!!!  

   I work in the lab here myself, and I would say that that is a _signifficant_ thing.  A very positive thing I might add.

   posted at 05:48PM 01/24/2007
6. MKR said:

   Sorry about that - I didn't mean to downplay it. Interoperability is good, and this is certainly a big step.

   Is there any possibility of a port to other operating systems in the future?

   posted at 07:11PM 01/24/2007
7. jwelch@bynkii.com said:

   Sam, honestly, if I wanted to post flamebait, i'm FAR better at it than THAT.

   But why bother with Firefox if it's Windows only? That's kind of a meaningless gesture. Firefox on other platforms? That's more useful.

   But dude, after being on this feed from the beginning, I'm seriously about done with it. This hasn't been about useful info on interop, it's been a PR feed. Functionally, it's been of no use. It's just been a "Look, you can SO use WIndows with Open Source, see, we're still cool"

   Then Ballmer threatens that he's thinking of suing all non-Suse Linux users. This is AFTER he's been funding SCO's inane lawsuit. Of course, now he's making the SAME CLAIMS as SCO. Tell me Sam, how seriously can I take Microsoft's "commitment" to open source interop when *your boss* is pulling the crap he's pulling? Makes it a bit hard. Vague claims of IP violations by linux users. Yeah, that makes me want to trust Microsoft.

   So tell me, how seriously do I take Port 25 when your boss just threatened me? Ubuntu user here. So, exactly how do I take that? Yes, your group is the Open Source Software Lab, yet, oddly, exactly what software have you released in the last year. Not bloody much. Still waiting for Microsoft's bit from the Sun alliance. You remember that one, right? that's the one where Ballmer and McNealy stood up and promised all this interop from both sides. Sun has some neat stuff in Solaris 10.

   Where's Microsoft's side? I mean beyond "here's an API, now go away."

   Microsoft is, and has been VERY good at mouthing words.

   However, it does, and has been very BAD about putting actions to words.

   A windows only plugin, even in Firefox, is not in fact, interop.

   posted at 11:12PM 01/24/2007
8. MKR said:

   jwelch: Remember - old habits die hard. At first I thought this whole open "thing" at Microsoft would fizzle out quickly.

   An OS specific plugin is interop, just not good interop. It's a learning process.

   Try to remember that Microsoft has been a closed-source operation for a number of decades. Any opening up is a big step, and you can't expect them to go too far without seeing how small steps in to openness play out.

   That said, I'm still wary of it. It could be some clever scheme to crush open source and Linux, but I always leave my mind open to change. The comments are certainly something to be concerned about, but it doesn't seem to be a consistent thing lately.

   posted at 08:19AM 01/25/2007
9. jwelch@bynkii.com said:

   MKR, I get small steps. It's the huge overarching, nay, *ridiculous* promises and announcements that Microsoft makes that turn into nothing. Note, it's not just interop. How many people with Exchange 2007 are trying to explain to their OWA users why they can't get to public folders. How many hours were wasted on WinFS projects. I can go back to 1995 with a constant history of Microsoft vaporware promises and even worse roadmaps.

   After ten - twelve years of being blatantly bs'd, you get gunshy, and the protestations of "no, really, NOW we're different we promise" fall on deaf ears.

   If Microsoft wants to have Port25 be anything other than damage control for Ballmer's big mouth, then I want code. From Microsoft. Not betas that go away. But actual code from Microsoft that makes interop easier with !Windows. Not APIs or Expression-built demos, but product. Not product designed to get you to migrate to Windows, (SFU anyone?) but product that acknowledges the reality of heterogeneous networks, and makes Windows a better player in that.

   Apple has done a lot of work to play with Windows, as has Sun, Novell, and every other platform vendor. Well, Microsoft has the quid. Now it's time for the pro quo.

   Interviews and windows - only plugins are just the same song and dance BS that we've seen from Microsoft for years. Without product, it's nothing.

   posted at 06:07PM 01/25/2007
10. MKR said:

    jwelch: You seem to know what needs to be done, so it's a start. What you might want to do is come up with a list of things that need improvement with short explanations of each, and let them know.

    One of the strengths of open source is collaboration between users and developers. If no-one talks to them in a constructive manner amd helps them figure out what needs to be done, then they'll have trouble prioritizing. They can only learn so much with market research and focus groups.

    Like I said, I'm an eternal optimist. I'm willing to believe these projects never fully materialized because they didn't see enough feedback, and they thought there was no interest.

    posted at 06:43PM 01/25/2007

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