Festivus for the Rest of Us - Port 25: The Open Source Community at Microsoft
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Festivus for the Rest of Us by jcannon on December 13, 2006 06:29PM

It’s been an interesting nine months on Port 25. For those keeping track, the endeavors of our lab have taken us to Portland, New York, California, Thailand, Boston and more. We’ve had  the chance to speak to some leading minds in the free and commercial open source world, including Eric Allman, Andi Gutmans, Tim O’Reilly, Matt Asay, Miguel de Icaza, among others.  And there’s more to come.  So we thought, at this time of year, it was time for a pause – a moment of examination - to try something different.

So here’s the idea.  While we’ve had the fortunate opportunity to talk to many provocative folks across the globe that have been very generous with their time and knowledge, we’ve yet to turn the camera on ourselves and let you ask the questions.  So let’s do exactly that. …We’ll take user-submitted questions (unedited), compile them, and then go around the table with the staff of the Open Source Software Lab to get the answers. Don’t hold back, feel free to air grievances (by grievances, I mean tough questions), or challenging technical issues you’re working on. We’ll try our best to address the most challenging, and most common, submissions. And given the often fiery tone on Port 25, there’s only one guiding principle to be smart about: questions of a derogatory, legal or unprofessional tone will likely be ignored. 

Otherwise, the ball is in your court to pose whatever Linux, Windows or OSS-related question that’s buzzing in your brain. Use the comments below to post your question (in the interest of total transparency), or if you prefer, you can submit a question via e-mail. We’ll take the top 7-10 questions and get Sam, Kishi, Bryan, Hank and Anandeep all together right after the New Year, and tape a roundtable discussion of the Q&A session. We’ll post the resulting conversation on Port 25, in totality, afterwards. If it’s a productive discussion, we can schedule more – or even think about a live Town Hall chat with more folks from across Microsoft. The tone of the conversation is really up to you.


Looking forward to hearing your questions ~ have a merry Festivus :)


PS. It may help to keep in mind the backgrounds of our lab staffie, it’s unlikely we can answer questions related to nuclear physics (that I’m aware of – Sam might have a few tricks up his sleeve).

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  1. Hi Guys,

    Two questions:

    1.  Do you think Microsoft would ever drop IIS in favor of Apache web server?  I'm saying that IIS is bad, but there are reasons people have gone with Apache over IIS.

    2.  Was it an African or European Swallow that was responsible for the coconuts?  (Think back to Monty Python)

    Grab the pole and light the lights.  Festivus rocks!

    posted at 10:19AM 12/14/2006
  2. Hmm - I have three questions:

    1. Document formats are forking this year more than I can remember (ODF, OpenXML, Legacy Office, PDF, XPS flying under the radar) - how is Microsoft going to help customers vs. push Office?

    2. Can we expect to see more ODF Convertor-like projects then?

    3. When will Microsoft offer support to open source projects (rumored with Mozilla) who are interested? What kind of support are you willing to extend?

    posted at 01:31PM 12/14/2006
  3. fluke said:

    A late happy festivus to you and a happy new year.

    .

    In terms of "Airing of Grievances," I am greatly troubled that this offer of taking questions around the table appears to be a once year thing.  The "Send Us Feedback" could be considered a method of turning the camera back in on Port 25 but most questions seem to go unanswered.  Both myself and others have found that submitting a question of "you guys should look into" either to the website or /dev/null produce the same results.  One of the few times that a question did get a response resulted in an answer that did not make sense.  Use PowerShell to help port to Windows CE any applications that make calls to select()?!  I'm keeping in mind that the lab staff isn't likely to provide a helpful answer to physics questions, but can't anyone from the lab tell that PowerShell is not even available for Windows CE or are able to tell the difference between a C language API abstraction and a shell abstraction?

    .

    What troubles me even more is the Port 25 moving line on defining constructive discussion vs. "bashing."  Port 25 points out an article about the "viral" nature of the terms of the GPL and somehow that is constructive.  But I point out the viral nature of Visual Studio SDK somehow that is bashing.  Is Port 25 supposed to encourage discussions with FOSS community members or not?  Because in terms of bashing, I have heard the community say a lot worse things said about Troll Tech's previous Qt licenses.  Yet Troll Tech was still willing to work with the community on changing the license terms.  Heck, the FOSS community seems to never stopped complaining about Sun Microsystem's licensing terms of Java but Sun still keeps the lines of communication open.  But when it comes to Port 25 the trend seems to be using the claim of "bashing" as an excuse to leave things unchanged.

    .

    Another method that seems to be popular at Port 25 is what I like to call the "look behind you" excuse.  So, while VS SDK may make it illegal to follow the FOSS paradigm of release early and release often, the FOSS community should look at the fact that the MySQL company has released a plugin using the SDK.  It is true that MySQL is involved with the FOSS community and it's flagship product follows the FOSS paradigm of release early and release often.  But that doesn't address the usability of VS SDK in a FOSS paradigm.  The bottom line to this "look behind you" is that even MySQL had to give up release early/release often to honor the viral nature of the VS SDK terms which conflict with the FOSS development model.

    .

    For the most part, Port 25 seems to be throwing out things that Microsoft already is doing for the FOSS community to consider *as-is* and then sits back to see what sticks.  I am interested in packaging the Single Sign On Daemon that was discussed on Port 25 in RPM format (which would violate the current SSOD license) but there is still no follow-up even after it being stated that it is being "looked into."  Even this attempt to try to advocate MS' offering to the rest of the FOSS community end up being denied by Port 25.

    .

    It also has appeared that the OSL crew that have written on Port 25 have been in a vacuum from the FOSS community.  After weeks of heated discussion in the FOSS community on how the GPL v3 will effect the GNU/Linux community including businesses, Bill Hilf declairs that discussing licenses are left as the big elephant in the room.  It is definately not because there is a lack of interest in the FOSS community to talk about licenses.  The lack of interest resulting in it being a big elephant seems to be in Bill Hilf's court where he prefer we dream of a day that licenses also follow KISS.  And while the MS-SS is fairly KISS by itself, he still fails to acknowledge or deal with the issue that a MS-SS that depends on the viral terms of the Visual Studio SDK (or several other MS SDKs including ones under even more restrictive terms such as the Windows DDK) is far from being *KISS*.

    .

    If the problem is that none of the Port 25 staff are MS lawyers then why not get a MS lawyer to join the group so we can move forward on these issues?

    .

    Port 25 also exists in a vacuum from several FOSS terms and concepts.  For example, OSL's lead in research strategy points out that MS NetScan is "free."  While NetScan is cool stuff, the terms of use is far from what most FOSS community members would consider to be "free" by FOSS standards.  Tammara Combs Turner seems to have even picked up on this and choose to use the word "available" instead during the interview.

    .

    Then there is the spin doctoring of what Microsoft is willing to help the FOSS community with.  Such as:

    .

    Port 25 Myth: Microsoft is supporting of ODF.

    .

    Reality: MS true feelings regarding "support" of ODF have been made clear by such MS employees as Brian Burke and Brian Jones.

    .

    Port 25 Myth: Microsoft is supporting of VM technologies to help you run Windows and Linux together.  Someday Microsoft might even assist in there being a micro-kernel enviroment that runs both Windows and Linux enviroments together in a co-operative fashion.

    .

    Reality: While MS has helped the Xen project and done other things to help run Windows and Linux together as *server* OSes, they also have been attacking VM on the desktop.  The Vista EULA requires paying a VM tariff for running Vista inside a VM.  You must pay for a high price version of Vista that contains features your not permitted to use in a VM, that run poorly or don't function correctly inside a VM or duplicate functionality already available in Linux or Mac OS X.  This tariff will clearly reduce consumer acceptance of using Xen, VMware or Parallels to use Windows inside of a VM.

    .

    Port 25 Myth: Port 25 invited the Firefox developers to work with them to ensure they could take advantage of Vista and Port 25 is open to working with other FOSS developers as well.

    .

    Reality: Microsoft continues to ignore requests from ClamWin developers to allow use of the IFS DDK under terms compatible with the GPL so that ClamWin can do real-time virus scanning.  No one from Port 25 has ever gotten involved in the ClamWin mailing lists to work towards any resolution on the problem.

    .

    And my list of grievances wouldn't be complete if I didn't include cool things that Microsoft is involved in that Port 25 has never gotten around to discussing:

    .

    - Microsoft funding of ActiveState

    - Microsoft funding of XORP router platform

    - Microsoft Singularity micro-kernel

    .

    davidmeyer: "I'm saying that IIS is bad"??  Where you the one that claimed that people should stop "bashing" Microsoft?  At least when Gartner said that customers should stop using IIS in favor of Apache they went into more detail why they thought IIS was bad.  Microsoft has done a reasonable job of supporting Apache module projects when it would help their customers.  But having a company a major player in the web server market also switch to Apache would further create another situation where there is largely homogeneous implementation of a service people consider to be critical to the internet.  There are plenty of white papers available that explain why that is bad from a computer security stand point.  From a technical stand point, Microsoft customers would probably come out ahead if Microsoft bought out Zeus and ported it to Windows to replace IIS than went with Apache.  Microsoft customers already have Apache as an option on Windows and Zeus has a history of out-performing both Apache and IIS.

    posted at 02:31AM 01/03/2007
  4. Port 25 said:

    Just a quick note to let folks know that we are going film the Festivus Roundtable next week so if you have questions, please take a moment to submit them before Monday January 8, 2007...

    posted at 06:21PM 01/03/2007
  5. Ah Fluke...nice to see you again.  I'll give you this much...you're consistant.  Once again, nothing nice to say about MS or Port25.

    Actually, I made a typo.  I meant to say "I'm NOT saying that IIS is bad..."  Funny how a single word being left out can change the entire meaning.

    My point was simply that I know a TON of Windows-centric organizations that use Apache Web Server because they prefer it over IIS.

    Anyway Fluke...Happy New Year to you and yours.  Hope you have a great 2007!

    Dave

    posted at 03:23PM 01/09/2007
  6. Port 25 said:

    In December Jamie posted a call for questions in the spirit of Festivus. Here is the result, or at least the first part of it...

    posted at 07:12PM 01/29/2007
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